Report 1377
Report #1377 Skillset: Wildewood Skill: Treehug Org: Hartstone Status: Completed Aug 2015 Furies' Decision: Solution 1 + chance -wood elevation shifts to require but not consume bal/EQ. Problem: Treehug is the only reagent-costing woodchem special attack that does not use the skillset's created weapon. This uniquely limits it in ways the other woodchem special attacks are not. Not using the Garland means that any runes or motes attached to the garland are not triggered by treehug, and that treehug is the only such attack that has no ranged component. Paired with the abysmal damage typing, these shortcomings make treehug a skill that is rarely - if ever - used. These solutions are meant to address different parts of this skill, compensating for a lack of range and power by introducing mechanics unique to the woodchem archetype. They are not exclusive. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Cause any motes or runes on the Wildewood's garland to fire when treehugging. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: Allow treehugging targets on a different (Above ground) elevation than the user. If the attack is successful, the victim is pulled to the same elevation as the user. 0 R: 0 Solution #3: Allow treehugging on a target in an adjacent room. This attack does no damage and does not spawn any afflictions on the target if successful, but it does bring them into the Wildewood's room. May be resisted, only blocked by solid physical walls and shields. Player Comments: ---on 8/13 @ 15:49 writes: Solution 1 should have been implemented all the way back when Wildewood originally came out. Definitely supported. Solution 3 gives them a nice utility that counters the fact that they lack the ability to use their attack at range like the other organizations' chemwoods do. I'd add the caveat that it should be subject to the same restrictions as ninjakari ninukhi. Supported. ---on 8/13 @ 16:05 writes: Supported for all solutions ---on 8/14 @ 01:07 writes: Solution 1 and 2 only. Solution 3 is unneeded without additional caveats ---on 8/14 @ 02:55 writes: Is solution 2 intended to work for ground, trees and flying? Solution 3 is too strong considering you already have the slow-leave effect from spores (as all chemwoods do). Solution 1 is fine, and solution 2 should be fine really. No to solution 3. ---on 8/14 @ 03:00 writes: Sorry, I meant Flurry, not spores for the move-delay skill. ---on 8/14 @ 13:42 writes: All organizations have access to chemwood slowing (as you mentioned) in addition to more (usable) pulls than Serenwilde has access to. The exceptions are Hallifax with convoke only, and Glomdoring who has other options to compensate - notably bonds to negate most other nation's pulls. As far as I am aware, the flurry-type slowing effects also only take effect once the passive effects have fired at least once against the focused target, making it a poor substitution to (say) Ninjakari's caltrops/chainyank combo, which takes immediate effect with no cost and minimal setup. ---on 8/14 @ 13:53 writes: I'm undecided. The logic doesn't quite flow that a lack of range and lacklustre damage leads to getting a Ninukhi clone to Wildewoods. The solution should be to give them the range and damage that they don't have sufficient of. Addressing how much harder it is to use wisp versus the city beckons/pulls is a better way of addressing any imbalance on that front. However, innovative solutions are a good idea - I'm just not sure if beckons/pulls are the best way to go about it, given their role in group combat. Solution 1 is definitely supported, and solution 2 is interesting as a geyser/swoop spell that does damage. ---on 8/14 @ 13:53 writes: It looks like I was wrong about the timing of the flurry effects, it was probably a bug that was later fixed. The point still stands about it being a combination that is already easily available. What other caveats do you think appropriate @Shuyin? ---on 8/14 @ 19:04 writes: @Lerad - I'm assuming the concept is that it isn't matching up with what wildewoods actually do when they treehug, i.e. grab someone in their branches and pull them in for a crushing hug against the trunk, something that cannot be accomplished feasibly at range. Pulling the target in, but without the added benefit of damage + broken limb shouldn't be too big an issue, especially under the same constraints as ninukhi, those being stopped by block/summon resist/walls/etc. ---on 8/14 @ 20:49 writes: That's right. How would we just 'give Wildewoods the range and damage that they don't have'? It doesn't make a lot of sense to handle it in many other ways, a limited effect that pulls opponents towards the Wildewood in some way makes the most sense. ---on 8/14 @ 20:51 writes: I missed block, and am kind of ambivalent about it stopping this pull. Is ninukhi really stopped by blocking in that direction? If so, that's fine, I guess. It would also have the regular pull caveat that trying to use it on an invalid target throws the user (briefly) off balance, so that you can't spam it. ---on 8/15 @ 01:16 writes: Chainyank isn't stopped by block but it -is- stopped by being offbalance. A skill that doesn't block and being offbalance is too much. Especially if it's instant (which this ability appears to be). ---on 8/16 @ 19:30 writes: Solution 1 and 2 with an additional suggestion of strengthening TREELIMB SPRAY to be equivalent in strength to a TreeHug once the TreeHug skill is learned. This addresses the shortcoming that Wildewood is the only woodchem spec that doesn't use their weapon (and therefore, any fused motes/runes) on ranged attacks that has been outlined in the Problem. No to solution 3 as I don't believe there's a need to give a chainyank clone to Serenwilde that has the same amount of room-pulls as anyone from Gaudiguch or Hallifax. ---on 8/16 @ 23:40 writes: Treehug is not any stronger than treelimb spraying. In fact, in many situations it will be a weaker attack because of the asphyx typing and breathing. Serenwilde does not functionally have the same amount of useable room-pulls as Gaudiguch. Feathered throat sing is a dramatically improved 'clone' of wisp, that actually has a chance to work where wisping requires pushing a dryad into the next room and hoping it survives the entire duration. You're also leaving out empress once combat has engaged, which is a massively useful way to pull tumbling enemies back into the fray. ---on 8/17 @ 14:35 writes: I'm confused, can aero-chems use convoke? I have no issue with groups being able to synergize and work together to accomplish goals, but I'm against putting this skill in with a guild who already has move-delay skill in it. In groups, two people have to work together to pull someone back in, where you're asking for one person to be able to do it. The move-delay gives you a chance to be back on balance to then pull the target back in when they move, and then it keeps them in that room for a time being after the fact. That's too much synergy and there hasn't really been any justification as to why this specific mechanic is actually needed. I don't have any issue having runes/motes fire on treehug, and I think the elevation change is ok too. I think the chainyank clone is entirely too much. ---on 8/17 @ 17:36 writes: There are already pulling skills with guilds with movement delays in-guild. For instance, the Ninjakari have one. Illuminati have one. Celestines and Nihilists have one. There is indeed synergy there, and it's intended for a guild and archetype that has very little synergy as is. This specific mechanic isn't absolutely the only possible suggestion, but it is an interesting mechanic that at once solves several problems and fills holes in the guild and org while maintaining the attack's theme and concept. As mentioned, just letting treehug work at LoS range is not consistent with this skill's concept, and as it literally involves pulling targets in ("... wraps her branches about you and smashes you against her great trunk in a tight hug...") a pulling-in skill seemed appropriate. If accepted, it will be no more powerful than several other similar skill combinations, including the Ninjakari chain yank caltrops combination (which is an exact parallel) or any number of rubble combined pulls. ---on 8/17 @ 18:44 writes: Sol. 1 only ---on 8/18 @ 01:12 writes: Solution 1 only. Solutions 1 and 2 don't really address any proposed problems. I'm all for an equitable summon for communes but I don't know if chainyank, which is in and of itself wildly OP, is the way to go. To me that's going in the wrong direction. I'd prefer to see summon skills nerfed rather than handed out to everyone. ---on 8/18 @ 01:32 writes: FYI - feathered throat sing can be resisted at -both- initiation and completion (with at least 5s delay), giving messages to both and does not beat block/shield/prone/offbalance. It's pretty useless in practicality. At least dryads usually succeed if you get it to go through all the way. ---on 8/18 @ 18:19 writes: Chainyank/caltrops isn't an exact parallel. 1) Caltrops isn't a passive skill that you set and forget 2) Chainyank has stipulations that you haven't applied to treehug here. Your other 'comparables' are also different. Rubble outside of geomancy has stipulations for use, beckon has other effective stoppages etc. You're asking for a super powerful pull that's stopped by very little combined with set and forget move-delay skill. Simply too much. ---on 8/18 @ 19:47 writes: I though that the problem that solution 2 was aimed at was common knowledge, that -wood archetypes suffer a disadvantage when fighting targets in forested terrain. Their enemy can climb up and down balance free while it takes 1.5+ seconds for the -wood to change elevation. Having an in-class ability to mitigate this penalty (geyser like) is helpful. It's not intended to necessarily work on flying elevation, no. ---on 8/21 @ 13:28 writes: Re: above: Will perspective changing for woods be too much? If that doesn't work, perhaps we can change it such that when wood effects are up, they hinder climbing into the trees(1s delay). ---on 8/21 @ 13:29 writes: Ugh. type. Will changing perspective changing to require but not take balance for woods be too much* ---on 8/22 @ 00:11 writes: I'd support just altogether requiring but not consuming balance or EQ to shift perspectives for -wood archetypes. I can see this being very much of a disadvantage, but I don't see any other reason to expand upon this solution.